[Mellow]

Interesting comments from Motortrend when testing the Santa Fe.

I had a Dual Clutch Fiesta and it was fun in the hills but for regular city driving and just going up my driveway-pausing-inching forward it would buck a little.. stop and go was also bucky for lack of a better word.

So... not sure I would go with the Turbo if it only got the DC... we'll see once some youtube reviewers start posting impressions. The good news is that will keep the cost down if I only go for the 2.5 NA and normal transmission.

2021 Hyundai Santa Fe Calligraphy 2.5T First Test Review: When Looks Can Be Deceiving

There’s more to the 2021 Hyundai Santa Fe than you think. But is that a good thing?

www.motortrend.com

 

[JASmith]

The relevant part is here for the lazy:

The issue is with the 2.5T model's transmission. Where the standard 2.5-liter models use an eight-speed automatic, the 2.5T models get an eight-speed dual-clutch automatic that's simply not ready for duty in a family SUV here or in the three-row Sorento. Hyundai points out this is a wet-type dual-clutch transmission, which the automaker says "greatly reduces most drivability concerns." All we can go by is our test SUV, which delivered rough shifts from a stop and at city-driving speeds—there was no escaping its lack of refinement. If we were in the market for a Santa Fe—and there are good reasons to consider one—we would steer clear of the responsive but rough dual-clutch as well as the somewhat surgey 2.5-liter turbocharged I-4. Or, we'd try the hybrid.

I'll want to see for myself, because the same 7-speed dry DCT they put in the Kia Soul was jerky, whereas the programming for the Kia Seltos was fine IMO.

A wet DCT shouldn't be inherently jerky, so that's probably something they will patch with a software update down the road for the Santa Fe, and may have already been done for the Santa Cruz. What is promising is that the 2.5T AWD gets the same highway fuel economy as the 2.5 FWD model, which is where I spend most of my time, and the 8-speed wet DCT in the Veloster N application got praise for sporty shifting.

 

[JMII]

I need the turbo's power for the towing so that is what I am getting regardless.

If the DCT is jerky on a test drive then guess I will not buy a SC, simple as that. I will say the MT review is not encouraging Responsive but rough might still be an acceptable trade off as its only noticable at low speeds, similar to a standard manual transmission where creeping around in 1st gear can be annyoning.

However DCTs are getting better all the time, my brother's Porsche has one (PDK wet clutch) and the new C8 has one (once again wet clutch). In theory its a superior way to change gears. However anyone interested in off road driving should stick with the regular automatic as its better for slow speed crawling and uphill tasks.

As for the AWD vs FWD mileage I bet it depends on how often the system switches to AWD. For example my brother had a VW Golf R - it would only engage the rear wheels if system detected front wheel slip. So it was FWD 90% of the time and only AWD 10% of the time. For track use he got an aftermarket controller which locked the car into AWD full time. Of course on track mileage was not a concern, it was all about ultimate grip and handling.

For towing I assume you want the system locked in AWD too. I thought I read when in "sport" mode that means AWD = on, plus there is a "lock" button in the center console which might be to engage AWD as needed. Compared to my current Dakota which averages 11 MPG when towing anything should be an improvement. I'd would be happy to get 15-17 dragging my boat. Fuel tank size is also a concern since a small tank will reduce range significantly when towing.

 

[JASmith]

I need the turbo's power for the towing so that is what I am getting regardless.

The 2.5 w/ the traditional automatic still does 3.5K trailer if I remember right, which is already quite a bit for a small vehicle. This is a 3.3K lb trailer (empty anyway):

SC doesn't come with a trailer brake controller from what I read, so you'd need that to even be allowed to tow that trailer in most states legally.

 

[JMII]

If there is one thing I've learned from towing over the last 20 years - get the BIGGEST engine you can. There is a massive difference between "can tow" and "tows well". My old Ranger was rated to tow around 5,000lbs and my Dakota is closer to 7,000. My boat is only in the 2,500 range but the ease at which Dakota pulls it made my old Ranger seem like a joke. I also towed with a Ram diesel and it acted like the boat wasn't even there due to all the torque.

Don't forget frontal area which Hyundai has not released yet. Moving weight is one thing, but the wind resistance is a whole different ball game. A trailer like the one above is basically a parachute in terms of aero. No way a SC could haul that at highway speeds for any length of time without overheating the engine or the transmission.

 

[modshack]

I would not worry about the DCT. I've viewed all the drive reviews on Kias and Hyundais with this transmission and the reviewers raved about it. DO NOT compare the old Ford dry clutch with this wet clutch technology. I've had three cars with Wet DCT's (GTI, C8, Porsche turbo) and they've all been fabulous. It's all about the programming and the Hyundai unit seems pretty dialed in...

Watch and listen for a good DCT review in the Veloster..

 

[JASmith]

No way a SC could haul that at highway speeds for any length of time without overheating the engine or the transmission.

Should be able to monitor that easy enough and adjust speed accordingly, but since we're discussing 2.5 vs 2.5T and their respective transmissions, I don't think there's any evidence that the wet DCT has more cooling capacity than the traditional automatic the 2.5 has. Unless they have supplemental coolers, they should both just be using the same radiator up front which are probably going to be about the same size since the "mouth" opening for it is the same size.

Personally, if I were towing that beast, Texas is luckily mostly flat and I'd be going no more than 55mph one way or another since as you say its a parachute and fuel economy would really suffer. It usually doesn't add a huge amount of time to a trip and gives you peace of mind when towing a lot of weight since your handling and braking are going to suffer.

 

[JMII]

Should be able to monitor that easy enough and adjust speed accordingly

Hopefully the digital gauge cluster offers some towing specific displays like trans and oil temp. Normally all you get is engine coolant and sometimes oil pressure.

Also you can't judge cooling just from the radiator opening. For example my Dakota uses stacked coolers - an aux trans cooler is mounted in front of the standard radiator.

 

[JASmith]

I think for sure they'll have trans and oil temp sensors, although it may just be a dummy light rather than a gauge we'll have to see. Reason I say that is even their most basic dry clutch DCTs had a transmission temp sensor to shut down the vehicle when it got too hot, as a couple reviewers already figured out trying to use it slow-crawling offroad!

 

[JMII]

although it may just be a dummy light rather than a gauge we'll have to see.

I'm hopeful for a real gauge... OK a real digital gauge. Seems like this would be an advantage of having a digital dash - adding gauges is really just a matter of displaying data you already have, IE: trans temp.

 

[randY49]

I'm hopeful for a real gauge... OK a real digital gauge. Seems like this would be an advantage of having a digital dash - adding gauges is really just a matter of displaying data you already have, IE: trans temp.

100%
That said, there are aftermarket options using a plug in the OBD port that transmits data to your phone. Too clunky to use every trip, but certainly an option when towing/hauling, etc. (I use DashCommand if anyone wants to see what I’m talking about, definitely available for iOS, assume Android as well.)

 

[Mellow]

Yup, on my Miata I installed and android head unit and got a bluetooth OBDII device then installed Torque Pro. A million things can be displayed that the OEM unit or dash never had the ability to do and you can configure it with as many gauges as you like in different shapes/sizes/colors and several pages as well.

 

[HSC4ME]

2.5L dual injected and torque converter SHIFTRONIC for me. Loved that combination on my 2012 Mini Cooper Hardtop and not a single issue in 10 tens of use. It wasn't fast (except in the corners), but was fun as heck to drive in Sport mode when the urge stuck me. I imagine the Santa Cruz with its' 2.5L will be as well. Slowing down in my active older years...

 

[JMII]

That said, there are aftermarket options using a plug in the OBD port that transmits data to your phone.

I use a similar setup when I track my C7. Combined with Apple CarPlay it should even show up on the infotainment screen.

 

[HSC4ME]

Liking the HP and Torque numbers of both engine versions offered. Those have been stated for all to see, but what I haven't seen yet is at what RPM those numbers are at.

Does anyone have the RPM's at which the peak HP and Torque are taken?

 

[Mellow]

Well, based on this link and the Tuscon:

2022 Hyundai Tucson Design Specs Engines Videos | Driving the Nation

2022 Hyundai Tucson Design Interior Product Mobility Tucson is Hyundai’s Best-selling Model Globally and Represents its Vision for Progressive Design, Eco-focused Powertrains

www.drivingthenation.com

Diverse Smartstream Engine Family Line-up
The new Tucson offers both a Smartstream 2.5-liter, a direct-injected, and multi-port-injected gasoline engine as well as 1.6-liter, direct-injected, turbocharged hybrid, and plug-in hybrid powertrains. The new Smartstream 2.5-liter engine, with high-efficiency combustion, cooled EGR and an optimized ITMS cooling system, boasts 187 horsepower at 6,100 rpm and 178 lb.-ft. of torque at 4,000 rpm, with a targeted combined fuel economy of 28 mpg with front-wheel drive. This 2.5-liter engine works with 8-speed automatic transmission for excellent efficiency and acceleration.

 

[HSC4ME]

Thanks, I clearly missed that...

How about the 2.5T? And what is the 2.5T pulling at 4,000RPM?

 

[JMII]

Per Hyundai Smartstream engine - Wikipedia
277 HP @ 6,000 rpm
311 TQ @ between 1,750 and 4,000 rpm

​

 

[HSC4ME]

Am I right in that these are what they call "Theta III" engines?

Very concerned when reviewing the reliability of the "Theta II" engines online. I hope Hyundai has worked out the past problems with this newer version. Having a hard time finding information on the 2.5L GDI+MPI engines. The fact that they use MPI at slower speeds and GDI when up to speed "should" resolve past issues; along with piston redesign and other things. I didn't realize there are lubrication issues with GDI engines in general. Sounds like Hyundai is on top of it with this new engine.

 

[JASmith]

Am I right in that these are what they call "Theta III" engines?

Very concerned when reviewing the reliability of the "Theta II" engines online. I hope Hyundai has worked out the past problems with this newer version. Having a hard time finding information of the 2.5L GDI+MPI engines. The fact that they use MPI at slower speeds and GDI when up to speed "should" resolve past issues; along with piston redesign and other things. I didn't realize there are lubrication issues with GDI engines in general. Sounds like Hyundai is on top of it with this new engine.

These engines are too new to really know long term reliability. Only thing I'm aware of that is unique on GDI are the carbon buildup issue and high fuel pressure issues on all GDI engines. Higher fuel pressures can lead to premature wear of any/all fuel delivery related components, but would be covered under warranty for 100K miles for the first owner so probably 7 years of average use. After that you may have to do a fuel pump replacement sooner than a regular lower fuel pressure system. And as you say the intake valves being occasionally washed in MPI mode should hopefully keep them clean.

The switch to putting ethanol instead of MTBE as an oxygenate and using EGR and GDI may have environmental benefits, but it is all harder on engines.